Transcript

Amy Tyson: And I believe somebody can be an absolutely horrible spouse and still be an amazing parent. Or maybe they were a horrible spouse and not so great of a parent. But it doesn’t mean that that can’t change. And a difficult divorce does not have to result in years and years and years of difficult co-parenting, but it takes work.

Voiceover: You’re listening to The Texas Family Law Insiders podcast, your source for the latest news and trends in family law in the state of Texas. Now, here’s your host, attorney Holly Draper.

Holly Draper: Today, we’re excited to welcome Amy Tyson back to The Texas Family Law Insiders podcast. We had Amy on quite some time ago to discuss her book, One Princess Two Castles. Today, we’ve brought her back to tell us about her latest resource for divorcing families, and to talk about her new role as a divorce coach. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Amy: Thank you, Holly. I’m so excited to chat again.

Holly: For anyone who might have missed your first episode, first I would encourage you to go back and find that one. Lots of good information in there. But for anyone who hasn’t done that, why don’t you go ahead and tell us a little bit about your background.

Amy: Absolutely. I am one of those many individuals, and that has not just been divorced, once that has been divorced twice. And I never say that to people, for anybody to ever feel sorry for me. I want to let everybody know kind of the things I’ve been through and my children have been through just so that they know I’ve chosen to take what I’ve been through, what my daughters have been through, and to use that to develop something that I truly believe can help so many individuals as they’re going through the splitting of their family.

And I’ll kind of go through this real quick because we’ve got so much to chat about. Back during, I believe was 2008, I was going through my first divorce. And at that point, I had two young daughters who were four and a half and seven and a half. And I had no idea how to even have that discussion about divorce. I didn’t have a lot of friends who had walked that journey at that point in my life. And so I had turned to my local church.

And the preschool minister had loaned me a book to help facilitate that discussion. And I remember I had their dad meet us at this treat area. And I spread out a princess blanket among all things for us to sit on and read this book. And it was a horrible experience. Number one, my daughters, our daughters, hated the day. No child is ever going to embrace that day with excitement.

Because they feel as if their world is falling apart. There are so many unknowns. But to make matters worse, I was not able to soften that blow. And I was just devastated. Because here I’d used the resource I had been loaned and then pretty much had walked through a conversation as I had been guided to walk through. So many, many years later, I have now left a second marriage and now have a third little girl who at this point is five.

And to be real honest, I’m not even looking at how to have that conversation because I was just in survival mode, like so many people. And I remember one day I was in the middle of folding laundry, and all of a sudden the phrase one princess two castles came into my head. And Holly, it was just so clear. I just can’t even explain how clear it was. And it was so strange to me at the time.

I wrote it down on a little scrap of paper and I put it in a silver box because I just knew nothing like that had ever happened to me before. And I didn’t think anything about it for months and months and months. And it is now time I have got to tell my youngest daughter. My older two knew because we had already moved out.

And there was just double this pressure because here I was going through divorce number two, and my two older daughters who had been four and a half and seven and a half when I had had that conversation with them so many years ago, still very much remembered that day. Still very much remembered that book all with very negative emotions. And now those two daughters who had been four and a half on seven and a half, one of them is about to enter high school, and the other one is getting ready to exit high school.

And I just remember thinking if a book, if a resource, has that much power over a child this many years later, I’ve got to get it right. And so at this point, I reached out to the counselor at my youngest daughter’s school who did not have a book in her counseling library. And at that point, but recommended one to me on Amazon. And so I ordered it. And long story short, it comes in. I’m home alone, and I just remember staring at the title of that book and just being put off.

And I thought no it’s been recommended. You’ve got to read it. And so I remember reading through it all alone. And I didn’t even make it through the whole book. Holly, I shut it because I thought this is not the way to go about it, or at least not the way I wanted to tell my own little girl. And at this point, I wasn’t thinking about the potential millions of other children and parents walking this journey. I was only thinking about my youngest little girl.

And after the book away and I sat down at my desk and wrote what you and so many other family law firms carry for your clients today, which is the book, One Princess Two Castles. And you know, quite honestly, I wanted to create a book for my own little girl. And now for so many other families it doesn’t so much explain the mechanics of a divorce, but the emotions behind it.

I wanted to give my little girl and so many other boys and girls out there permission for their hearts to hurt. Because you know, no matter how you go about it, your child’s heart is going to hurt, there’s a lot changing for them. But I also wanted to give unapologetic permission, sorry for their little hearts to feel very excited about spending time with both parents, regardless of what was going on behind the scenes. Because here’s the deal. And we’ll talk about this with my coaching.

But I firmly believe if you figured out how to have a child with that other parent, you better figure out how to co-parent. And that child deserves to have a relationship with both parents and to know and understand both parents love them and to feel excited about spending time with the other parent and helping to facilitate that relationship. I feel very strongly about that.

But thirdly, on the book, it has a phrase that’s so important. Things will be different, but things will be good. And this applies to both parent and child. Because I’m a huge believer, that mindset is so important. And just because things are going to be different from your living arrangements to maybe you’re going back to work, to your custody, to your finances, just because it’s different doesn’t mean it has to be bad. And so let’s look at the good that can come out of even those difficult situations.

Holly: So I know you have a new resource available now that’s kind of a companion to your book, but I guess could probably stand alone, too. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about that?

Amy: Yes, so my newest resource, it’s a journal, and it’s called Little Hearts Big Feelings. And it can absolutely be a standalone product. And this journal has a much bigger age range for it. This is for children ages four to 15. And it has targeted prompts for children and teenagers to draw out their feelings. So as a former educator, I really truly believe that children are more readily able to express their emotions, through drawings, versus even written text, especially verbal text, and verbal communication.

We know as adults, right, how hard is it sometimes to have those difficult conversations and express our emotions. Well you take a child and even a teenager who they don’t know how to have those conversations, and you couple that with so much at the time, they are often carrying the burden of their parents’ pain. Whether they’re hearing things spoken, they’re seeing text messages coming across, or they’re just picking up on body language and facial expressions, they have got to be able to express their emotions.

So when I created this, it’s got targeted prompts, that help these children go through their emotions, and also help their parents to understand where their children are coming from. And it’s designed so that when the child or the teenager goes to bed, they’re put to bed 15 to 20 minutes earlier. You have crayons, and markers out on their nightstand, and you say listen, you know what, I want you to work through this page in your journal.

I’m gonna go do the dishes, or I’m gonna go exercise for a little bit, and then I’m gonna come in, and then I’ll put you to bed. And when they put them to bed, that journal goes in the nightstand. It’s not a time to discuss it with the child or the teenager. This is for the parent to look at much later on, that the child has no idea about, it’s simply to give insight.

But for you all, as family law attorneys and for any custody evaluators, it can be an excellent resource so that when you’re handing over One Princess Two Castles, you’re also handing over a copy of this journal. And you say to them, listen, we know as adults, it’s difficult sometimes to express our emotions, and it’s a lot harder for children and teenagers.

So I want to provide you with this resource. And occasionally, when you come back in for our meetings, I’m going to have you bring this journal and we’re going to look at these pages. Because it can give you as that litigator and these custody evaluators a really good glimpse at what is really going on in this child or teenager’s heart and mind and this may very well change some of the things that you try to litigate.

Holly: So can you give a couple of examples of the types of prompts that it includes?

Amy: Oh, absolutely. So it starts out real bubblegum or basic, as I like to say to warm the kids up so they don’t really realize kind of that they’re going to be getting into the meat of their emotions. It starts out with simple things like draw a picture of yourself, draw a picture, what are your favorite snacks? What are your favorite things for breakfast? And it goes on for some of their favorite things. And this is key because we know a lot of times when there’s a splitting of a family, there’s one parent that may not have been so involved in really rearing the child.

And this helps that parent to get to know their child in a better way. Then it will get in to draw a picture of your family. Well, for some people, they may think, what’s the big deal with that? When you look at that picture, how is that picture drawn? Is there a big jagged edge down the middle? Is the child holding one parent’s hand and the other parent is off, you know, on the other side of the picture doing something else?

Are their speech bubbles with things written that are not good? Are there tears are there smiles? Is somebody else added to this family picture that nobody knew anything about? It will also get into draw four things that make you feel afraid. Okay? Again, what is this child drawing or teenager drawing that makes them feel afraid. But then on the next page, it says draw four things that can help you to not feel afraid.

Because I’m a huge believer, and I really do believe wholeheartedly that even young children can come up with healthy coping mechanisms to counteract some of those feelings. Then it’ll get into mom and dad after we’ve grasped the emotions. And for everywhere that it asks or to have prompts about the mom, it will have corresponding prompts about the dad. Because we know both parents are equally as important in this child’s life. And they should be.

So draw a picture of dad, what does that picture look like? Draw a picture of you with your dad. What are four of your favorite things that you like to do with your dad? And they’re drawing those pictures. Again, very insightful for the attorney and the parents that are looking at this. Because typically, A number one, it’s not going to be all these expensive things that the parent is doing with their child, it’s going to be quality time situations.

And so you may have a parent coming in either for a divorce or a SAPCR, they’re coming back in for a modification, saying my child doesn’t want to spend time with the other parent anymore. We need to flip visitation and things like that. Well, if you’ve got a journal, where this child is showing all these quality things that they like to do with the other parent, maybe that’s not a modification that needs to be filed that way.

And it will say a thing like draw a picture of four things you wish you could do with your dad. Again, it’ll have a corresponding page for the mom. And chances are, it’s not going to be I wish dad would take me to the mall. It’s going to be I wish dad would sit and read with me or I wish dad or mom would go on a walk with me things like that. And it will also talk about what do you think about when you go to bed at night.

Okay, as an attorney, what is going through this child’s head as they’re going to bed at night? Okay, draw a picture of what can help you sleep better at night. What does that picture look like? Draw a picture of what you think of when you wake up in the morning. What can help your day to go better? What are four things that you wish mom and dad knew?

Draw a picture of four things that you think or write about living in two homes. So it really goes through the whole process. And then at the very tail end, it says two homes and two parents that love me. So I really gave you a very condensed version. But it is a ton of pages. I want to say it’s like 80-something pages, I need to go back in and look. But I’ll give you an example.

So for every page, there’s a bubble font that the teenagers and the kids can color in or draw designs and then it will have the page that goes with it. And at the beginning, there’s a letter to the child and to the parents. So I really am hoping to help these individuals and their children to have hope, healing, and comfort and give you guys some insight that you might not have gotten otherwise.

Holly: Well that sounds super helpful. Before we dive into our next topic, where can people go to find out more about One Princess Two Castles or the journal?

Amy: Yes, so One Princess Two Castles, and Little Hearts, Big Feelings, there are two different ways that they can get those. A, they can get them from family law firms that carry my resources and there’s a lot of those. Or they can get them from my website, which is happinessintheheartache.com.

Holly: Okay, so then the next the issue I wanted to dive into today is to talk about your latest venture, which is working as a certified divorce coach. For anyone who might not be familiar, which is probably a lot of people, to be honest, what exactly is a divorce coach?

Amy: Right. And I’m so glad we’re getting to chat about this, because number one, anybody can just say they’re a coach, right? But did they go through training? And I think that is so important. I knew for me that I wanted to use what I’ve been through to help other individuals. And I really felt like this was the next step.

And I didn’t hear or know anything about being a divorce coach up until probably about a year and a half ago. And then I checked into in and I thought I wish I would have had one of those when I went through my divorces. And so here is the deal. A divorce coach does not replace an attorney, or a therapist, or anything like that.

And I never tell anyone what to do. I am exploring what different paths look like if they are to take those. And my goal is to really help individuals end one chapter with grace and begin another chapter with confidence. And if they have children, helping them to co-parent well. All while helping them to become a more credible client for their family law attorneys.

Voiceover: This episode of The Texas Family Law Insiders podcast is sponsored by the Draper Law Firm, providing family law litigation in Collin, Denton, and Dallas counties and appeals across Texas. The Draper Firm has represented parents in cases before multiple courts of appeals and prevailed in the Texas Supreme Court in one of the biggest parental rights cases in Texas history. For more information, visit draperfirm.com, or call 469-715-6801.

Holly: So you mentioned becoming certified. What all was involved with becoming a certified divorce coach?

Amy: Yes, a lot. So I had classes beginning in August, and they finished up in December. We had classes twice a week. And then every other week, we would have training sessions with a mentor coach. And then every other week, we would do coaching sessions with a peer. And so it was a lot of reading. And there were assignments involved, and then a lot of practice. And so what I’m so passionate about is now I don’t just have the book knowledge, right?

Or the educational knowledge. I have the heart knowledge. And I think when you put those two things together, it can really make such a difference for these individuals that are out there. Because, in my opinion, it’s really hard to come up with the antidote, if you have not experienced the sting of the pain. And so I feel like I’m combining those two things to really help people along this journey.

Holly: So how does a divorce coach fit into the whole divorce process?

Amy: Right. So ideally, when you all have a client coming to you, the minute they retain you is when you also say we have, I want to recommend to you, we have a certified divorce coach and co-parenting coach. And then they reach out to me and we set up, I have different packages of sessions. And I can meet with them in person, or virtually. I love in person because I just love that.

But I’m happy to do sessions with people virtually, which is great because I can truly meet with people all over the world as long as they have a Wi-Fi connection. And so basically, it’s helping them to communicate about what they’ve been through, but also thinking about what the other parent is going through, right?

Because it’s real easy when you’re going through a split of a relationship or your family if you have children is splitting, to become so stuck in that story of divorce. And so if they’re stuck in that story of divorce when they’re meeting with you all as family law attorneys, how many times are they repeating this isn’t fair, they cheated on me, you know, all of the things.

And it’s difficult for those meetings with you all to be productive and to get on with that business of divorce. And so one of my big roles is helping them to get unstuck so that as they’re moving through that process that we know oftentimes it’s not a short process is really helping them to be their best self and the best parent and the best client they can possibly be.

Holly: So I know a lot of times and I’m sure you see this as well, as you know, just say, an observer of Facebook moms groups or something. You see a lot of individuals looking at going through divorce who are trying to find ways of not having to hire a lawyer. Does someone using a divorce coach still need to hire a lawyer?

Amy: Oh my word. Yes. Oh, I mean, yes, you absolutely need a family law attorney and you need a good family law attorney. And I think what’s awesome if you get a really, I’m sorry, a divorce coach that’s been out there in the community, you’ve got resources of family law attorneys that you can refer over to these individuals that are coming to you. So for example, let’s say, if you refer somebody to me, obviously, I’m not referring another attorney.

But there could be somebody off one of those moms’ groups or in the community that comes to me first, that doesn’t have a family law attorney. And so then I will listen to their needs. And then I will think about the different family law attorneys that I have met with over the years, and I will recommend a small amount of attorneys based on their needs. It’s never just one.

But oh, my goodness, I don’t replace a family law attorney. I don’t give legal advice. I’m not qualified to and I don’t want to. That is not my lane. But I would advise these women or men, that are reaching out in these groups. Well, you better be really careful about the advice that you’re given. And you need to seek wise counsel.

Holly: 100%. Is there any interaction if you’re working with a divorcing client and they have a family lawyer, is there any interaction between you and the attorney? Or is what you’re doing completely separate from what the attorney is doing?

Amy: That is a great question, Holly. And so let’s say that you referred a client over to me. If the client gives me permission to communicate with you, then 100%, I can do that. If it’s a situation where they have not, I cannot. I feel like everything needs to be confidential. However, if I’m ever subpoenaed for court then anything that person has said to me, can be brought out in court. And so people need to be aware of that. But yes, I am happy to work hand in hand with you all as family law attorneys as long as your client and the person that is coming to me gives that permission.

And one thing I want to bring up too is that, you know so much of the time, it’s not that you guys don’t have the want to for that emotional handholding. You don’t have the time to. And so I am happy to provide that. So let’s say you have a mediation coming up. And you have a client and they’re just stuck.

They’re so unsure. I’m happy to come to one of those mediations, as long as it’s in, you know, this area and sit as a form of support, or let’s say they’re going for a temporary hearing or a final trial, I am happy to come and sit in the back of the classroom just as an added support.

Holly: So you said something about being subpoenaed. And that made me wonder if I, you know, let’s say that we think the other person on the other side might be working with a divorce coach. Is there a reason, A, that I should be asking that question and discovery? And, B, that we might want to subpoena the divorce coach?

Amy: Well, I mean, I think that’s certainly to your discretion, right? Because you have got a lot more knowledge, obviously, of the laws and things that are to gain by asking questions like that. I think it’s important to remember as if the divorce coach is doing their job, you’re not telling them what to do, and you’re not giving them answers. You are going to be hearing things.

And but with that being said, I would imagine, this was said to me by a family law attorney here recently. And again, I don’t give legal advice, so I don’t know. But they said, listen, you only have so much time to get people up on the stand. And so you need to figure out who those most important people are.

So that would be something to weigh in having a divorce coach up there versus, you know, somebody else to ask questions. But I think that might not be a bad question to ask in your discovery. But I think also you have to remember, if somebody is seeing a divorce coach, I think that is a great thing because they’re not wanting to stay stuck.

They’re wanting to move forward. And if they have children, okay, they’re wanting to move forward and figure out how to co-parent in a healthy way, hopefully. And that’s what we want. Right? I believe there needs to be a huge change. So that’s my thoughts on that.

Holly: I was thinking there’s probably not a lot of bad that you can get out of a divorce coach. I mean, I guess if somebody’s just spilling all their dirty laundry to the divorce coach, then possibly, but I would hope that it’s more structured than that.

Amy: Yes, so we’re trained to skillfully interrupt. I’m not going to allow somebody to go on and on and on, you know, just verbally spewing stuff because that’s just not productive. So if it’s a good divorce coach or co-parenting coach, they’re not going to let that person stay stuck in that cycle. We’re going to be moving on to be productive.

Holly: So knowing that there is a possibility the other side could seek discovery related to the divorce coach or could subpoena the divorce coach, why do you think attorneys should be comfortable with their clients using a divorce coach during this process?

Amy: Right? Well, as I was saying earlier, I don’t think so much of the time that family law attorneys don’t want to do the emotional hand-holding. It’s that you guys don’t have time to. So much of the time, you all have got heavy caseloads, right? And you’ve got meetings stacked up for the day, or you’re looking over what you need to get ready for your trial or your hearing. And you just, you’ve got to move on. I had an attorney tell me recently, we had a really long meeting.

And she said, you know, I will have these clients that they are so stuck, and they need that handholding. And she was like, when I go in to present how much this client has spent with me, it can be huge. And she said, I don’t ever want to look like I’m overcharging but I’ve really been trying to help this person. And so here’s the thing if you have a divorce coach coming in that’s a good one, we can help do that handholding.

And my fees are typically going to be a lot less than an attorney’s fees. And again, if I can help your client to get unstuck off that story of divorce when they’re meeting with you, hopefully, they’ve got some of those emotions reeled in. And they’re going to be more organized and better prepared to listen to you and send quality emails, and hopefully better able to meet those deadlines for discovery and things like that.

Holly: Are there certain types of clients that you think would benefit the most from using a divorce coach?

Amy: You know, I really think men and women equally and there’s some different reasons that I think both can benefit, right? Divorce is never easy. I mean, it’s just not. Any way you look at it. I think, a lot of the time for women, especially those women that have been maybe stay-at-home moms for a stint, right? They’re looking at, oh, my goodness, I’ve gotta go find a job, how am I going to provide a place to live and all of those things.

And I think it’s common for both but more common for women. And this is where I came in to, with my feelings is that for some women, they may have the degree, but all they really wanted to be in life was a wife and a mom. And when 50% of that equation has been taken away, or destroyed, what are they left with? And now they’re oftentimes they’re not going to have their child as much as they used to.

And it’s figuring out, okay, what do I want my life to look like? And how can I leave that in the best way possible? But you know, I was talking with an attorney last week, and this attorney has lots of men clients. And you know, men, a lot of times are trained, you don’t talk about your feelings. But you’ve got to talk about your feelings.

And especially if you have children, you’re going to have to process those and figure out how to communicate with your child because children, whether it’s a little girl or a little boy, or they’re older, they need good fathers. And part of being a good father is being a good communicator. And both sides learning how to co-parent in a healthy way, because here’s the deal. It doesn’t matter if they cheated, it doesn’t matter if they weren’t nice to you, or you feel like you are ruined financially. That’s the child’s other parent. Period.

And I believe somebody can be an absolutely horrible spouse, and still be an amazing parent. Or maybe they were a horrible spouse and not so great of a parent. But it doesn’t mean that that can’t change. And a difficult divorce does not have to result in years and years and years of difficult co-parenting, but it takes work. And it may be more work on one person’s side for a while, and then it kind of evens out. But if you love your child, you’re gonna put in that work. Period.

Holly: So how would you say working with a divorce coach is different than working with a therapist?

Amy: Sure. And that’s a great question. So I actually recently met with a therapist here in Frisco. She has a practice. And she believes in my coaching so much she’s actually donating office space for me in her building, which was just, I was like, oh my goodness. But you know, oftentimes you when you’re going through a divorce, you need a great family law attorney, but you also need a great therapist. And a therapist and a coach are completely different.

I’m in a completely different lane. I don’t diagnose people with disorders or anything like that. As this therapist told me, she said Amy, she goes on to need people to refer to. She said I help them with the trauma, but I need them to help them through this journey, basically of divorce and examining different pathways. There’s just not enough time for them to do everything.

Holly: So if someone is starting to work with a divorce coach, is there sort of a curriculum or something that has worked through? Or is each individual’s journey different?

Amy: That’s a good question. And everybody is truly different. Because no divorce is the same. And then it’s going to depend if they have children. But the beginning, we always start with like a discovery session where I kind of hear what they’ve been through. And then we look at what they think their goals are.

Holly: So any other tidbits of information you think our audience should know about divorce coaching?

Amy: No, I think that divorce coaching, it’s a fairly new thing that’s out there. And I think that it can really help individuals as they’re going through this process. And once that process ends, like these papers are signed, right, helping them with the years that follow because it’s a journey, right? And even if there are no children, it’s still a journey of becoming your best self and figuring out what you want your life to look like.

And helping these parents as they co-parent through the years. Because just remember, if you have a child, co-parenting does not end the day that child turns 18. And it doesn’t end the day that last child support check is written or received. It’s truly a lifelong journey and I want to help people do it in a better way.

Holly: So where can our listeners go if they want to find out more about your coaching services?

Amy: Absolutely. So you can go to my Instagram or my Facebook. It is The Texas Divorce Coach, and they can message me on there. I’m on LinkedIn as Amy Tyson or you can also go to my website happinessintheheartache.com.

Holly: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for hopping on with us again today. And for our listeners, if you enjoyed this podcast please take a second to leave us a review and subscribe so you can enjoy future episodes.

Voiceover: The Texas Family Law Insiders podcast is sponsored by The Draper Law Firm. We help people navigate divorce and child custody cases and handle family law appellate matters. For more information, visit our website at www.draperfirm.com.