Transcript

Sarah Fox: I think that from a family law standpoint, the children are always the most important focus and so if the civil aspect of it is protecting the children, I would advise my client to leave the criminal element alone.

Voiceover: You’re listening to the Texas Family Law Insiders podcast, your source for the latest news and trends in family law in the state of Texas. Now, here’s your host attorney Holly Draper.

Holly Draper: Today I’m excited to welcome Sarah Fox to the Texas Family Law Insiders podcast. Originally from a small town in East Texas. Sarah has always been passionate about helping those affected by the justice system. From the beginning of her career as an assistant district attorney to now defending clients in private practice, Sarah has proudly served her community for 13 years.

Sarah’s proudest professional accolade was becoming board certified in criminal law in 2016, an honor held by less than 1% of practicing attorneys in Texas. Sarah is the owner of the Fox Firm, PLLC in Plano, Texas, where she practices both family and criminal law. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Sarah: Thanks for having me.

Holly: So why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background.

Sarah: So like you mentioned, I did grow up very small town, got my undergraduate degree down at Southwestern University in Georgetown, and went straight into law school. I knew that I always wanted to do criminal law. I really wanted to be a public servant. Wanted to work for a prosecutor’s office, but graduated during the recession. And so those jobs were really hard to come by.

And I got very lucky, very blessed to start, pretty much after I graduated with the Collin County DA’s office, and I put in almost five years there. Got to have great experiences as both a misdemeanor and a felony prosecutor. Do appeals. Really get to see things from every angle, as that office really nurtured our abilities to expand into any area of criminal law that we wanted to.

And when I left there, I went into private practice and worked for a couple of different firms before starting my own practice. But over the years, was constantly getting called by colleagues who practice family law to help consult on different areas of their cases that they were not experts in, right.

The ways that family law and criminal law so often intersect, and as anyone who gets very specialized in their area of law will know, you don’t want to be guilty of giving the wrong advice on something that we’ve just dabbled in here and there. So I started to really develop a reputation as somebody that people could call to ask questions.

Whether it had to do with invoking the fifth on the stand or trying to testify if there were family violence charges, or if an affidavit made a criminal allegation, how to handle that outside of the hearing. Those kinds of issues. And eventually, I just segued that into my own family law practice, because I enjoyed it so much. And there was so much crossover between family and criminal.

Holly: Yeah, I think that’s one of the surprising things for someone who’s a new lawyer or new to family law is just how much we see family law and criminal law intersecting. So for anyone out there listening, who doesn’t have a go-to criminal attorney and doesn’t have a background in criminal law, it would be a really good idea to find one because you can’t mess around with somebody’s life, and their freedom. And you don’t want to make a mistake that’s going to land somebody in jail.

Sarah: I liken it to as a criminal attorney, I’m constantly attending CLE he’s on immigration law and trying to make sure that I stay up to date on what some of the basic implications are going to be, from anything from misdemeanors, you know, obviously up to felonies for clients who maybe are on a green card or here on a visa status. And while I have that requisite knowledge to be able to spot when there’s a problem, I certainly always want to refer my clients out to an actual immigration attorney once I spot those problems.

I think it’s important for family law attorneys to learn and educate themselves for the issue spotting, but then once you’ve spotted that issue, it’s important to call or consult with or employ a specific criminal law attorney to help advise from that point forward instead of trying to take it on yourself.

Holly: I agree 100%. And so hopefully today, we can help with talking about some of those issues so that family lawyers can recognize them and can know when they need to call in someone who’s more of an expert in that particular area. One of those topics that we deal with a lot in family law is drug issues.

So obviously drugs can have both a criminal and a civil component to them when we have a family law client. So when, it’s not unusual for people say I want drug testing. So you know, dad’s smoking pot, mom’s doing meth, whatever the case may be. What are the criminal implications that family lawyers need to think about when someone starts raising drug concerns?

Sarah: Great question. So the answer really depends on whether or not you have children. Because speaking purely from semantics, and how the law is worded, it’s not illegal to do drugs in the state of Texas. It is illegal to possess drugs, which you obviously cannot consume them without possessing them.

But what that means is, if you’re going through a divorce proceeding, or some kind of proceeding, that doesn’t necessarily involve being a responsible parent, for your kids, you can get drug tested and pop for having used yesterday or last year, all you want, and the cops are not going to come after you. That’s way too much trouble. They can’t prove that you possessed the drug, they have to catch you in real time, right.

Or have some hard evidence that you actually possessed it rather than just consumed it. So a lot of times when I’ve consulted with family law attorneys or evaluating my own cases, we’re looking at what are your priorities in this specific instance, right. And if you don’t have kids, don’t stress over the drug stuff. It’s going to have other implications, obviously, as you well know, in your family lawsuit, but less so in the criminal realm.

As long as you’re not taking the weed with you to court, you’re gonna be okay criminally. With that being said, however, if you have children, obviously, any testimony, any evidence that is introduced in a final hearing, in a temporary orders hearing, can be used against you when we’re talking about child neglect or child abuse.

And it is well established that obviously trying to care for your children when you are under the influence of especially hard drugs, or if you’re under the influence of illegal substances that are causing you to neglect your children or have poor decision making, it’s negatively affecting the emotional, physical well being of your children, then that can be used to initiate an investigation criminally to file criminal charges.

Just the same way that we see overlap between family law and CPS. If that evidence of drug use while you are parenting comes out in a family law case, it does not take much for a criminal investigation to be initiated by that testimony or by that evidence.

Holly: So a lot of times when we see the intersection with CPS and a drug related case, my experience has been CPS will probably, if they see that you’re handling it civilly, they’ll probably stay out of it and let you all handle it civilly. Is the same true in a criminal context?

Sarah: It’s case by case. The difference between CPS and criminal is CPS is kind of the deciding body, right. They get to decide what they’re going to investigate and what they’re not. And from a criminal standpoint, unfortunately, a lot of it is political, because it is an elected body, right.

And so if a parent is very intent on there being criminal charges filed against the other parent for some kind of abuse or neglect, relating to extreme drug use, then that pressure, in my experience more often than not, is going to lead to some kind of investigation and charges even if the situation in and of itself, would without that pressure, leave a police agency or the DA’s office to say y’all take care of it.

We’ll wait and see what the judge does. There’s gonna be other ways to intervene, we’re not concerned. So we do see anytime there is a complaining party, a victim, whatever you want to call it, when there’s that third party element to a criminal case pushing, then we see more movement than you would otherwise.

Holly: So if we have a client who let’s say we represent mom, and mom is alleging that dad is a meth addict and dad can’t be trusted with the kids, because dad’s a meth addict. Would you encourage that mom to go to the police with that? Or would you say, well, you know, we’re just gonna ask for drug testing, and we’re gonna ask for supervised visits, and we’re gonna do these things in the family law context.

Sarah: So are you asking me as practicing both family and criminal?

Holly: Sure.

Sarah: Okay. I mean, because I think it changes right. When I’m wearing my family law hat, I’m wearing that hat. And when I’m wearing my criminal law hat, I’m wearing that hat. And again, it’s all about priorities and what you want to accomplish. I think that from a family law standpoint, and you know this as well, you run a really fine line between if you don’t try to seek charges then how serious are you about it?

How serious is the concern? Versus are you manipulating the system by trying to be vindictive? I think that from a family law standpoint, the children are always the most important focus. And so if the civil aspect of it is protecting the children, I would advise my client to leave the criminal element alone.

As we see, unfortunately, too often because it is an any given Sunday situation when you walk into court, if the court system, the justice system is not intervening or not intervening quickly enough, which has happened so many times, especially since 2020, then I absolutely would advise a mom to go at least file charges. At least notify the police department of the concerns while dad is in possession of the kids and initiate that kind of investigation. Absolutely.

Holly: Is there any risk in that hypothetical to mom when she says, hey, you know, city PD, dad’s a meth addict, and he’s watching the kids and it’s dangerous, and I want you to go after him. Of okay, well, mom, you let, you stayed married to the meth addict for five years, and you left the kids alone with him. Can the tables turn then on mom in a criminal way?

Sarah: No, no. I would liken it again to like CPS investigations, where CPS is always concerned if mom has these concerns, and then gets back together with dad and allows the kids to be with dad. But no, I’m never worried as a criminal attorney that if she goes and makes these complaints and raises these concerns with the police department, that they’re gonna say, okay, but you knew about it, and you didn’t do anything about it. I have not in 13 years seen that come up.

Holly: What advice, in a family law context, what advice would you give to a client, if the other side has accused them of using drugs?

Sarah: So it kind of goes back to what is your priority. Obviously, stop. Because no attorney wants to walk into court. If you’re going to walk in and have a positive drug test, or testimony of drug use, the only way that is mitigated at all is by having your client being able to say, but I haven’t used since, right. So always, always stop. I even tell my criminal clients, you know, start studying for your test now.

So but again, it goes back to priorities. I think that there’s a scale, if the kids aren’t involved, I’m less concerned about it. Because then it’s just petty stuff. If the kids are involved, then it’s really, really important to one address and make clear that the drug use isn’t happening around the children. And that two, in my experience, criminally and so I use this in my family law practice as well.

People and judges especially, but we are human, and we tend to really empathize with someone who has a problem. And so if you’re working with a client. First of all, if you’re using drugs around your kid, you have a problem. You’re not just having, I mean, not that it’s ever okay.

But I represent people who have done a bump of coke at a party versus people who are addicts. Strong, strong addicts. If you’re doing it around your kid, chances are you are an addict. And so everybody I believe, is redeemable and I think that especially in Collin County, where our primary practices are, I think that that is also true. I think that the judges believe that people are redeemable.

And so the first thing that you need to do if your client is the one who has been accused of drug use, is stop. And if you can’t stop, let’s start having some hard come to Jesus meetings about where are you and is it worth it to you to take those steps in admitting that you’re and addict and working towards being able to have better access to your kids?

Holly: So one of the issues that you brought up, we were talking about, you know what topics we were going to discuss today, related not so much to our clients as family lawyers, but to their teenage children, and some of the drug issues that are becoming commonplace now when we are dealing with teenagers. Can you talk a little bit about that? And what are some things we might want to be aware of?

Sarah: Absolutely. And I do think that it does come into play with family law cases as well. The first issue is that we have seen this shift in the last few years from teenagers experimenting with traditional marijuana as we know it leaves and stems, having a baggie in the car when they’re not supposed to or going to a party and doing things we wish they wouldn’t do. But we kind of know what to expect from it right.

Towards the shift of using Dab pens or some kind of oils or gummies. Other substances that incorporate THC, but are also mixed chemically with other things. And one of the big problems as it faces teenagers, and this is my, as a mom, my biggest PSA. I wish it would go all over TV. Is that you don’t know what you’re getting. You have no idea what that has been mixed with, what it has been made with.

And so from that safety standpoint, that safety concern, we see those offenses as felonies. They’re coming in as felonies, not as misdemeanors. Whereas, back in the day, the traditional leaves and stems was a Class B misdemeanor. It was the lowest jailable offense there was right. We can work with that. But when you’re getting arrested with a felony, even though kids think it’s just THC, and a lot of parents think it’s just THC, and they might be mad about it.

But they don’t know the difference in terms of collateral consequences to their teens of getting caught with a dab pen versus a baggie of marijuana. You’re starting with a felony. If it’s at school, you’re now in a drug free zone. And most schools have this no tolerance expulsion policy. Where if you are arrested for a felony, you’re expelled. And so I see a lot. I have a lot of clients who are already accepted to college, have scholarships, and now they’re expelled from school.

And even if the DAs offices in the area are being considerate, and trying to give these kids a second chance and let them work off their charges, it doesn’t happen in time for them to start in the fall. It doesn’t happen in time for them to save their scholarship. And it can be so much more devastating than and I’m not advocating that kids do drugs at all, don’t misunderstand.

But for children and for their parents to liken traditional marijuana to the gummies, or the cartridges that we’re seeing go around now, and thinks that they are the same or even mistakenly think that the cartridges are safer than the marijuana. We’re seeing really, really terrible consequences that change these kids’ lives.

The way that it comes across in family law is when we get those modifications, because everybody’s been doing fine for the last six, seven years. And now Suzy is a sophomore or junior, and suddenly on dad’s watch, she got expelled from high school, that looks really bad to a parent. Looks really bad to a family law judge. Looks like he’s not doing his job, he’s not paying attention, he’s neglectful. He must be a bad influence. When the reality is, we’re not that aware of what’s going into our kids backpacks, because it doesn’t smell like leaves and stems, right.

You don’t have the same warning signs, as our parents did, if our friends were doing those kinds of things when we were younger. So I think that it’s really important to be aware of the issue so that parents, both from a safety standpoint, and from a legal standpoint, know what to look for, and know that that’s what kids are doing, and how dangerous it is both to their future and to their safety.

Holly: So I too, am a parent of a teenager. And it’s a scary world out there. And so, aside from finding something in your kid’s bag, what are some signs that parents can be looking for?

Sarah: It’s going to be the traditional kind of thing. I mean it’s going to be having to pay attention to if they’re having their doors locked and if they’re spacing out often. The problem is there’s really not a lot of signs because you’re not going to smell it like you would traditionally. Or it’s going to look maybe like a nicotine cartridge, because that’s so popular.

You really just have to be vigilant and know what your kids are doing and where they are. And especially I mean, what’s in their car, what’s in their backpack. I think that’s more important than ever, even though it feels like a violation of their privacy. It’s important to know what’s in their backpack as much as it is to know what’s on their cell phone.

Voiceover: This episode of the Texas Family Law Insiders podcast is sponsored by the Draper Law Firm. Providing family law litigation in Collin, Denton and Dallas counties and appeals across Texas. The Draper Firm has represented parents in cases before multiple courts of appeals and prevailed in the Texas Supreme Court in one of the biggest parental rights cases in Texas history. For more information, visit draperfirm.com or call 469-715-6801.

Holly: Okay, so shifting gears a little bit, I have another topic that I am seeing coming up pretty regularly in family law that could have criminal implications as well. And that is one side recording the other or recording the children. So are there any criminal implications, criminal laws that we should be aware of when we’re looking at a client who’s doing this?

Sarah: So if your client is involved in the recording and the communication. Texas is a one party consent state. Meaning I can record a phone call with you without ever telling you I’m recording it. Because I have consented to it as the call maker or the call taker. As long as one party consents, that’s legal. That’s different from a lot of other states.

That’s why when you call to make a payment on your car, or you talk to your insurance company, or any of those things, they always have to ask you if it’s okay to record because not all states are one party. But in Texas, we’re a one party state.

So if you have a client who is accusing their spouse of being abusive, and they say, but I’ve got these recordings of him admitting to hitting me or of him calling me names and just going crazy on me, there’s no criminal issues with using those recordings, because your client is the one party who has consented to them, right. Where we run into issues is when we see clients, or even other parties go and try to steal communications that they are not a part of.

Holly: So what about, let’s say you have cameras in your house. And, you know, I’m trying to catch my husband, my hypothetical husband, not my real one, he’s wonderful, being abusive to the children or yelling at the children or hitting them, or whatever the case may be. Something that I think is bad parenting and I want to be able to use it in court. Are there any criminal risks of me recording those types of things? If I’m not there, I’m not a witness to it. I just have, you know, the nanny cam running.

Sarah: Right, I think, now, we’re going to talk legally versus practically, right. Because normally, that information, that evidence is only going to come out if you do witness a crime. Right, or if you see that there was some kind of abuse. And so I think that how the police agencies and how the DAs office deal with it is going to differ based on the content of it.

But theoretically, if we’re talking about recordings, and the house, he has consented. Now, if you have a lock out order, and he’s coming to pick up the kids, you know, you could argue or he could argue that there wasn’t consent, but it’s really going to come down to did he have informed consent? And was that consent effective?

Most of the time, if we have the cameras, you know, up in the corners of the house or whatever, those were put up by both parties, and unless one party wants to, you know, make their revocation of consent known or take them down, you’re going to be okay, criminally.

Now, whether you can use them or not. Is different, especially the audio portion of it, right, because you don’t have any rights to necessarily record or bug his communications. But in terms of being able to witness a crime, theoretically, the example you gave would be the one example where both parties have consented to that.

Holly: So let’s say I think my husband is having an affair, and I want to record his conversations with his mistress. If I have an audio device in his car, or in the house, or somewhere that is hidden and he doesn’t know, because I’m trying to record this. What kind of trouble can I get into?

Sarah: Absolutely. So then you are looking at some type of essentially what we refer to commonly as wiretapping, right? You’re not allowed to record someone’s conversation, or even their musings, if they’re alone. You’re not allowed to record them without their consent, again, unless you are part of the conversation. So if you are tapping his conversations in his car with his mistress, and you’re not in it, you can’t do it, you can’t use it.

And you could be facing criminal liability for obtaining it and trying to use it. A separate crime, it’s similar and related, but different would be, you know, again, if you’re looking at emails or Facebook correspondence, something like that. Because we’re talking about consent, I think it’s really important to talk about those.

Because in a lot of marriages, both parties give consent to the other one, to check their email to look on Facebook to read through messenger. And very rarely is it even about trust? It’s just I know, if my husband even it’s like, I don’t know it’s in my inbox, go find it right, when you’re trying to look for some kind of information.

And so we get the question will, if both parties have consented, then what’s wrong with being able to access the email? What’s wrong with being able to access their direct messages? In Texas, however, if you go into someone else’s computer period, their electronic space, their cyberspace or their hardware space, without their effective consent, then you have committed a crime. And effective consent means what they gave you consent for.

So in the example that you give of cheating, if I’m going into my husband’s Facebook Messenger, trying to find communications between him and someone else, or even communications of him to someone talking about cheating, not only are the communications themselves protected under law, because you’re not one of the parties that have consented, but even if he gave you consent to get into his Facebook, that consent is not effective, if it’s not for the purpose he originally gave it to you.

And I think that it’s a pretty easy argument to say your husband never gave you consent to his Facebook, for you to look and see if he’s cheating. So if that’s not the reason he gave you consent, then it is committing a crime to go in and start looking through those kinds of secured messages.

Holly: I think that’s a really big one where we have clients very regularly, who will send us emails between their spouse and somebody else, text messages between their spouse and somebody else, Facebook messages, whatever the case may be. And it’s kind of a silver bullet for whatever the ultimate issue they’re trying to prove is. But like, man, you got to stop doing that. That’s illegal. If she finds out, you could face criminal charges. We can’t use this in court because you illegally obtained this. What do you do, if you have a family law client who gives you stuff like that?

Sarah: Like, what you said I mean, I, I am not going to use, I’m not going to indulge, and I’m certainly going to discourage once I start receiving any information like that from a client. We’re not using it. And that’s one of those hard boundaries that you have to have. In terms of client control. I will say, it is really difficult, though, because it’s usually from someone who has the suspicion already.

And so now they’re giving you proof, or confirmation of that suspicion. And I personally think ethically, you can add to it when you’re cross examining someone or directing someone in court up to the communication that you knew. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with still using the suspicion and questioning them about the suspicion.

But you, you essentially have to act like it does not exist. You can’t use the communication, you can’t, you have to make clear to the client that you won’t use the communication that they need to stop that they are actively breaking the law. And just leave it at that. And that is where a lot of wars happen, unfortunately, with really, really upset and jaded clients.

Holly: So what about this scenario? Mom buys daughter a cell phone. And daughter is communicating with dad on the cell phone? And they’re talking about mom, or they’re talking about whatever they you know, some plan to how are we going to flip custody? Or how are we gonna, you know, make mom look bad?

Can mom, because it’s her child, you know, as a parent, we should be monitoring our children’s messages and making sure they’re not getting into trouble and things like that. Can mom look at those messages? Is that criminal? Is she allowed to use those in court?

Sarah: She’s not allowed to use them in court. No, you still have the same issue of consent. You can even try to say based on the age of the child, maybe that daughter gave consent here, mommy use these messages. But again, when we look at effective consent, the age of the party is really important. And there’s not a black and white line.

But generally it’s going to be accepted that young kids can’t give effective consent. What’s weird is mom has all of the legal right in the world to get into the phone. She has a greater right to the phone, she owns the phone, there is an expectation between daughter and mom, that daughter doesn’t have a superior privacy right to the phone the mom does.

But once we get into those messages, mom cannot then exploit what should be private messages between daughter and dad for use in court. Because the dad has the right to privacy. So I would argue that you do have the right to get into the phone. I would argue that it’s a fine line, but an acceptable one to go through it to make sure you have a safety concern about your child.

But it has to stop there. You can’t use anything that you found. You certainly can’t disseminate it. You can’t use the information that you found in there. You’re stuck. The communications are protected even if access to the phone itself is not.

Holly: So one of the things you mentioned way at the beginning that family lawyers often ask you about and I think this is something that comes up pretty regularly, especially if we’ve got DD or some other type of car mental issue. Should you allow your client to testify in a family law case, if there are criminal charges pending or possible criminal charges related to the facts of the case?

Sarah: That’s one of those, again, where it is very, very case by case, because it’s going to depend on what your overarching priorities are. If, and I have done both. I have clients who have family violence allegations, and I’ve gone ahead and let them testify in temporary orders and that sort of thing. And then I’ve had some where we absolutely have to claim the fifth, because there are too many unknowns and the criminal case to take that risk.

So at the end of the day, this is not a helpful answer. But that’s why it’s important to employ a criminal attorney to be able to say your chances based on what I have here of going to jail are, you know, 60%, if you testified. So don’t go give them any ammo, versus this is a crap case. So go ahead and testify, I’m not worried about it. And then weigh that against, if you’re the family law attorney, against your assessment of how important is it for you to have access to your kids?

Or how likely is the judge to find family violence without you testifying? And so, unfortunately, there’s not a clear cut answer. That’s why it’s so important, once you’ve identified that issue, to bring in a criminal attorney that you trust to be able to give you perspective on the other side, so that your client can effectively weigh and make that decision themselves.

Holly: And I think we often think of it when there are active criminal charges pending and our client has been charged. Our client has a lawyer, we can call that lawyer and be like, okay, what we do on temp orders? I think where it gets really important for people to remember about these issues is when there’s just allegations of it. Okay, there haven’t been any criminal charges filed. But if, like what the other side is alleging is in fact, a crime?

Sarah: Sure.

Holly: So we need to be careful about what are we going to let you testify to. I think it’s a really good idea to have that client consult with a criminal lawyer, and hopefully, that criminal lawyer will talk to us and we can figure out, okay, this is a big risk if you’re gonna get on the stand and talk about this or not.

Sarah: So I will tell you from my perspective, and my experience. Especially when I was doing more consulting and less of my own family law cases, there’s a big line when we get into child abuse allegations. Whether it’s sexual abuse, or physical abuse, that tends to really be the line where I can’t, in my mind, see a benefit, that the benefit of testifying in a temporary orders hearing to try and save access in the immediate to your children does not outweigh the possibility and the consequences of a criminal charge.

Especially because the chances of a criminal charge coming down once those allegations are made, whether it’s in a supporting affidavit, or it’s made in court, are really high. Much different than if you have a client who is questioned about assaulting or shoving or whatever to their spouse or to their partner. If they’re not pending charges on an assault, they may or may not come from that. But if there’s allegations about abuse to a child charges are coming.

An investigation is coming. And so there’s not a benefit to testifying on the stand to protect yourself in that situation. Furthermore, when you’re dealing with a misdemeanor, if the charges are cleared later, great. Eventually you can have them expunged or sealed from the public.

But when we’re talking about allegations that involve a child, even if the charges are ultimately cleared, or resolved in a favorable way for your client, the arrest itself is going to remain on their criminal record for many, many years without any kind of relief.

And so you have to think about the collateral consequences for someone who’s able to keep their job or move up in their career to be able to provide for the kids. There’s just a lot more at stake. Once we start talking about child crimes versus misdemeanors, which is usually what our assault of charges are.

Holly: So we’re just about out of time. But one of the questions that I ask everybody who comes on the podcast, is if you could give one piece of advice to young family lawyers, what would it be?

Sarah: I think to listen and learn. Especially from the generation just above you, right? So the lawyers that are coming out of law school now. Talk to the senior associates or the the young partners at your firm. Hear the war stories, talk to them, brainstorm with them on advice, listen, when they tell their stories about their cases. That’s where you’re gonna learn the most from. Because it’s not a big jump, where you say, okay, well we don’t do things like that anymore. There’s actually a lot to learn from them.

And similarly, learn in court, go to court early. Don’t be the person that says okay, well we’re fourth on the docket so I’m gonna go sit in the hallway. Sit in court and learn and listen and watch other attorneys do the same kinds of cases that you’re embarking on now. It can help you find your style, it can help you discover things that you didn’t know. It can help you learn to act on your toes. Put in the time to listen and learn.

Holly: Very good advice. So where can our listeners go if they want to learn more about you?

Sarah: Right, so our website is sarahfoxlaw.com. But you could just Google the Fox Firm. And you can find us through Google. You can find us through Facebook, or again directly on our website, sarahfoxlaw.com.

Holly: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. For our listeners, if you could take a second to leave us a five star review and subscribe to enjoy future episodes we would greatly appreciate it.

Voiceover: The Texas Family Law Insiders podcast is sponsored by the Draper Law firm. We help people navigate divorce and child custody cases and handle family law appellate matters. For more information, visit our website at www.Draperfirm.com