Transcript

Ashley Shihab: The more clear you are on who you are at your authentic core, like who you are underneath your trauma, who you are underneath limiting beliefs, societal expectations, all of that. So the more clear you are on who you actually are and what you really want in your life, the easier life becomes.

Voiceover: You’re listening to the Texas Family Law Insiders podcast, your source for the latest news and trends in family law in the state of Texas. Now, here’s your host attorney Holly Draper.

Holly Draper: Today we’re excited to welcome Ashley Shihab to the Texas Family Law Insiders podcast. Ashley is a Certified Life Coach with Frisco Counseling and Wellness in Frisco, Texas. She obtained her advanced life coach certification from the Life Purpose Institute, and her associate certified coach certification from the International Coaches Federation. Ashley helps adults cultivate total clarity on who they are and what they want in their personal and professional lives. Starting over after divorce, burnout from a demanding career and generally feeling stuck in life are common reasons clients seek out coaching with Ashley.

In working with recently divorced clients, Ashley’s intention is to help them infuse more life into their life. She meets them where they are helps them get crystal clear on who they are and what they want. So they can move forward and create a life that makes them feel alive. Ashley provides thought provoking questions, fresh perspectives, mindset shifts support accountability, motivation and tools to help with blocks and obstacles that arise on the path to the rest of a client’s life. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Ashley: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

Holly: So why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background?

Ashley: Sure. So I pretty much knew when I was in college that helping people was of interest to me, but for whatever reason, that was just not the path that I decided to go in school and not the path that I went right after college. I actually ended up working in advertising for a while and then working as an executive assistant. And I spent the bulk of my adult life feeling like I was living the wrong life.

Feeling like there was this hole where my passion and my purpose were supposed to be. And so I really started a personal growth journey in my 20s to figure out what is my passion. What is my purpose. And long story short, all roads lead to Rome and led me right into life coaching. And in hindsight, it was so obvious that this is the path I was supposed to be on. But of course, when I was trying to figure out the path, it was like what’s going on, where am I going.

So once I realized, okay, I am really meant to be helping people as a life coach, I decided to go back to school in my mid 30s, while working full time to obtain my life coaching certification. And then I started my coaching practice on the side of my full time corporate job. So it was really wonderful when I was able to transition out of corporate America and into coaching full time, and now living out my passion and purpose. So I can relate to people who are really worn out from working and who don’t know what they’re doing with their careers.

Holly: So what exactly is a life coach?

Ashley: So a life coach I like to describe as being kind of like a cousin of a therapist. The biggest high level difference is that therapy takes you back to your past to help you manage your present, whereas life coaching needs you where you are, and helps you to move forward in your life. So I had actually considered being a therapist when I was in college, and it didn’t feel like the right fit for me. And in hindsight now knowing what I know about, you know, both professions, as a life coach, I honestly think it’s just a lot more fun. I love the forward progress.

And I feel like I really become my clients’ teammates. We’re working together on goals and really, always moving people forward and creating. So it’s a very fun process. This isn’t to say that we don’t look back into your past because a lot of times our beliefs or our obstacles are stemming from our past. But life coaching, I think it just seems a little like less clinical and a little bit more, kind of like you’re just doing something where you’re like, I’m going to see a start point and an end point.

Holly: So I think that’s a really interesting perspective versus therapy with looking back versus looking forward. Because as a divorce lawyer, that’s one of the things that we really try and do especially if clients are focused on revenge or really angry about the past and we try and help them you know, this is not about going backwards, this is about going forwards and what’s going to put you in the best possible position going forward. So it sounds like this may be a really good tool that we can share with our clients that are going through divorce.

Ashley: Absolutely. I feel like with anything in life, we often either live in the past, or we live in the future. My goal is to get people to live in the present, to accept the past, knowing that we can’t go back and change it. And then to be intentional about creating your future. So for someone who’s just gone through a divorce, a lot of times there’s a lack of identity now. Like who am I without my partner? Who am I, outside of this union? Who am I now that maybe I’m single, you know, as a 45 year old, and I haven’t been single since I was 22. And there’s a lot of self exploration that happens there. And my favorite part of all of this, and my kind of like motto for everything is, the more clear you are on who you are at your authentic core.

Like who you are underneath your trauma, who you are underneath, limiting beliefs, societal expectations, all of that. So the more clear you are on who you actually are and what you really want in your life, the easier life becomes. So people who are coming out of a divorce, they’re really at a place where they have a blank slate in front of them. They have a blank canvas that they now get to create however they want. And that can be horrifying, that can be paralyzing to people because it’s so scary because it’s so uncertain, unknown, and brand new.

Holly: Do you often find with divorcing clients, that they’ve kind of lost themselves over the course of their marriage?

Ashley: Yes, most people that I work with who are coming out of a relationship, even if it’s not a divorce, even if it’s just, you know, a breakup of a serious long term relationship, they have lost themselves. I think a lot of times we enter into relationships, not even knowing ourselves. You know, maybe we’re just too young, we haven’t taken the time, or more often than not, we’ve never actually been taught to really know ourselves.

So we get in this partnership. And we have this like rainbow and butterfly, you know, perspective of oh, we lived happily ever after. And so we’re doing everything we can to live happily ever after, which oftentimes leaves our needs unmet. And I think a lot of times men and women, but especially women are not even taught to communicate their needs, to express their needs, to even acknowledge their needs. And that causes you to lose yourself even more.

Holly: So you mentioned a lot of people don’t know how to figure out who they are. So do you have some tips or brief explanation of how people can do that?

Ashley: It really is a journey. It’s a process. And I think that the process begins with a process of unbecoming all the things you truly are not. So the process really starts with looking at how you live your life. And if you’re living it for you, or for other people. So a lot of times we start living our life for other people from a young age, you know, maybe our parents want us to be in a certain profession, or, you know, we’re just kind of taught well, you sit still, you look pretty, you be quiet.

Whatever it is, you have to kind of start out by looking at what are the operating principles that I’m living my life from? And does this actually resonate with me or not? And a lot of that process is getting out of our heads. Because our heads are in the future. They’re in the past and getting back into our bodies, into our feeling selves, into our intuition. It’s really fun. It’s a it’s an exciting process.

Holly: So do you include anything like personality testing or anything like that?

Ashley: I do. I use the Enneagram often with my clients to just kind of help them to have a base level of okay, maybe let’s see here, what resonates with me. Because a lot of times with the Enneagram it’ll show how you operate when you’re under stress, or where you’re maybe in an unhealthy place. And that’s usually where clients are like, oh, my goodness, that is so me. And then it also shows you the perspective of okay, now for this personality type, here’s where you’re operating when you’re healthy. And so you can kind of have that visual in mind and then we can work through why are you in this unhealthy place? You know, what is going on that’s keeping you here. Now for me personally, with the Enneagram or any sort of self help anything at all. I don’t believe in a blanket approach. I believe that we all can take what resonates with us and leave the rest.

Holly: So for any of our listeners that happen to not know, can you explain what the Enneagram is?

Ashley: Sure, the Enneagram, it is kind of basically a personality test. So if you’ve heard of Myers Briggs or something like that, it’s in the same family. And I think if you go to take it on your own on the internet, you have to pay but I have a subscription to it. And so I’m able to provide that to my clients as a free service as part of their coaching. So basically, you go through, you answer a bunch of questions, it doesn’t take terribly long, maybe 20 minutes or so. And then the results are emailed to us. And then we can kind of go through that. And on the Enneagram, it tells you your kind of primary personality type, and a secondary personality type. And it kind of goes from there. But the primary and the secondary are where a lot of your behavioral characteristics lie.

And what I see for people versus say, the Myers Briggs or something like that is with the Enneagram, it is very clear about what happens to you when you’re under stress and when you’re in an unhealthy place. And I think sometimes for people who have just been through a really trying time, such as a divorce, to be able to read, like, oh, I’m this type personality, and I’m reacting like this, oh, I’m normal, like, this isn’t crazy. Like, this isn’t something totally, that no one else can relate to. This is actually a common thing. It can be very validating.

Holly: So, I mentioned at the beginning, in the intro, that you have an advanced life coach certification. Can you kind of tell us what that is, and what’s involved in getting that?

Ashley: Yes, so I chose to do the life path, because I like to talk about a variety of different things. I help people with their careers as well, but I look at it, like your career is part of your life. So I went to school online. I mean, it was a traditional school, but we just did it via Zoom. And I kind of rushed it because I was very ready to get out of corporate America. So I was able to do it all and probably a year and a half, I would not suggest doing that though. I would suggest starting out maybe two, two and a half years. So there was actual class. And then I had to go through a lot of coaching, you know, being coached, which I had already done.

I had worked with my own life coach, I had also worked with the therapist, and a lot of hours of coaching other people and you know, fun, traditional school stuff like papers, coaching people in front of the class, and then getting feedback, which would make me like, sweat profusely. And, you know, that was, that was a lot. So it was it was a really exciting process for for me, and it helped me I think really sharpen my kind of natural abilities and natural skill sets so that I can help people on a deeper level.

Holly: So can you describe in general, the process of what it looks like for someone to come work with a life coach?

Ashley: Yes. So if you’ve ever been to a therapist, it’s kind of a similar process. We basically start out where I send you an intake paperwork with, you know, all the fun legal papers you have to fill out, but also an intake questionnaire, where it gives us both a clear picture on where you currently are, and where you’re thinking you want to go. So what parts of your life are currently on fire that we want to start to address. So in the first session, it’s mostly informational type thing. Like you’re sharing about your life, what’s going on where you are. And as we go along, we start out by meeting either weekly or bi weekly, to keep the momentum going, you know, when you start this process, like you’re hungry, you’re excited to explore.

So we want to get that ball rolling. And you as the client are in the driver’s seat. You decide what we talk about each week. And then between each session I give my clients homework. A big part of coaching with me is that when you’re not sitting in a session with me, I still want you to feel like you’re doing something, you’re making progress, you’re clear on what’s going on here. So my clients will have homework between sessions that helps them move closer to where they’re trying to go.

This could be things like, okay, you’re saying you want to work out, so I’m going to hold you accountable to working out four times between now and the next session. This could be things like I give you a journal prompt for you to dive deeper into so that you can maybe explore deeper a topic that came up during our session. It could be really anything and we kind of decide that together. And then we kind of go from there. It’s there’s no set length amount of time in which we work together.

It’s really personal preference. I used to look at coaching and therapy like there was an end date like okay, I’m gonna reach this finite destination and then I’m done. But the more that I’ve now gotten into this, I realized at different points in our life, usually when we’re in some sort of transition, we can all use that outside help. We can all use that outside guidance. So now I look at it like this is a resource that I’m always going to have around me, and I’m going to utilize it at the times in my life when I feel most called to it.

Holly: So you kind of touched on this already, but obviously, we’re targeting family lawyers. And so we have a lot of people with clients going through divorce or other difficult family law situations. So why is life coaching a valuable service for someone who’s going through a divorce or for someone who just went through a divorce?

Ashley: I would say it’s a really valuable service for someone specifically coming out of a divorce or going through divorce because your entire life as you know it is changing. So to get that clarity on who you are now, and what you want now, is really life changing. This may be the first time in these people’s lives, that they have a chance to intentionally create their life, how they want to create it. First of all, a lot of us kind of go through life asleep at the wheel kind of letting life happen to us, maybe not kind of co-creating our lives.

And I think there’s so that’s part of it, you know, you’re in a place now where you’re really in the driver’s seat, and you get to intentionally create. And I think the other part of it is, your, this is horrifying. Your life as you know it is completely changing. You’re navigating a lot of complex emotions, there’s grief, because you’ve gone through trauma and grief is fun wave to ride. And you could be angry, you could be sad, you could be scared, you could have no self esteem whatsoever, after what you’ve been through.

And so to have someone on your team, helping you navigate those emotions, is just, it’s really invaluable to you in that time period. It is so nice to feel like, I’m not alone. I now know how to better navigate this. And it’s okay that I’m scared about my future, it’s okay that I’m uncertain about my future. Here’s how we can get to that together. So I think that with the coaching process, and someone who’s going through a divorce, this will help you to process what you’ve been through, and also to go forward.

Holly: So what are some common roadblocks or obstacles that you see recently divorced clients struggling with and how do you help them navigate those?

Ashley: So I would say self confidence always comes up, because your self confidence has usually been beaten down. Sometimes, you know, perhaps in a toxic or unhealthy marriage, but also just because your union is ending. You know, I think that people really look at themselves like they’re a failure, or they look at themselves, like with a lot of stigma attached to the fact that they’re getting a divorce, which is not helpful. And I wish that wasn’t the case. But you know, it just kind of is what it is. And so I think that self confidence piece can be a big hurdle for people whether you know, they want to get in a relationship again, or they just want to create their lives, you know, we have to be doing this from a place of feeling good and competent about ourselves.

I also think that a big obstacle is the lack of clarity, like we’ve talked about, on who you are and what you want. You’re sitting here looking at this blank slate, and you’re like, I have no idea what to do with this. And that is horrifying. And it can cause you to go into like analysis paralysis and kind of stay stuck. And then I think there’s a piece, like I mentioned of the emotions. And you know, the fact that if this union is ending, there was probably unhealthiness, or stress or trauma going on that led to this point. And this can be something that you’ve been dealing with since your childhood.

This could be really deep beliefs. For example, I have a client right now who she has the belief that men have no emotional depth. And so then she keeps attracting men who have no emotional depth. And it’s like, well, if this is what you believe, this is what you’re going to draw to you and date. So if you’re telling me you want to get married and have children, I’m guessing you don’t want to do that with a man who has no emotional depth. So let’s dissect this. Let’s dive into this. And let’s figure out where these beliefs are coming from and then pivot them so that you can do differently and attract differently going forward.

Holly: One of the roadblocks I see a lot is for the stay at home mom who has not worked in years, maybe hasn’t used their degree in years. How do you help women work through that roadblock?

Ashley: Yeah, that’s, that’s a big one. I think that with the stay at home mom, a lot of times our identity gets wrapped up in, you know, being the wife, being the mom. So basically our identity becomes wrapped up in other people and what I call the out there. And so what I want to help these women do is bring it back in here into yourself and really go through that process of okay who am I? I understand you haven’t used your degree and maybe you haven’t worked in a really long time. And maybe now you’re in a situation where you need to or want to. And that can be horrifying. And it’s like, what is this look like now.

And I want you to just not, oh, I just need to take a job, I’m gonna do this, and I’m gonna be miserable at it. Like, let’s actually consciously again, create what you’re wanting. I sort of take this belief of, there’s money to be made, there’s money everywhere, like there’s like 12 year olds making millions of dollars on tik tok, so anything is possible. So let’s choose a path that actually fits who you are. And let’s get your identity out of other people. And let’s have your identity come from you, from your power, from your authentic core self.

Holly: So can you give us some examples of kind of the types of thought provoking questions you ask clients in life coaching?

Ashley: Yes, so with the thought provoking questions, a lot of what I’m looking for, is I’m trying to pick up on the thread that is woven through what you’re telling me that you probably don’t see, right, because when we’re in our own heads, sometimes we’ll say a word or we’ll say something, we don’t even hear it. I hear it, I pick it up. And I can tell like, there’s something here, there’s something here that we need to talk about. So like I kind of mentioned earlier, I don’t take a blanket approach to anything. Everything that I do is very client specific. I’m picking up on your energy, on your words, on your beliefs. And I’m going to ask questions based on this thread that I’m seeing that you definitely don’t see.

My clients, they never see it, and I don’t see it, either, because my coach does it to me. And I’m like, I said that? What? And a lot of times what will be very interesting and eye opening for people, is when we get them clarity on what certain words mean to them, and what their beliefs are around that word. So like, what is your belief around marriage? Like, why do people get married? Why do people stay married? You know, what is your belief around you know, your partner?

You know, having that client who said, well, you know, all men don’t have emotional depth and the ability to have deep emotional processing, it’s like, okay, if you really believe that, then why do you even want to date a man? Like, let’s break all of this down. So when you with these thought provoking questions, I’m trying to help you uncover your conscious and subconscious thoughts. And that really leads to just what Oprah calls aha moments where your mind is kind of blown. And then scientifically, we literally rewire your brain. So it’s yeah, it’s awesome. I just love it, I think.

Holly: So as divorce attorneys, are there particular types of clients we should be looking for that could benefit the most from life coaching?

Ashley: I mean, honestly, I think that everyone going through divorce could benefit from it. I think that every human being could benefit from it in general. But I think that what would happen for you guys, because I see this a lot with kind of everything is that people oftentimes try to use the wrong person as their life coach. Like maybe they’re kind of talking to their divorce attorney about, you know, their problems, their feelings, all of that. And it’s like, you know, that’s not really what I’m trained in and trying to do here.

Like, let me direct you to someone who can actually make this a more productive process. And if you see someone that is really stuck in the past, you know, of revenge or anger and all of that. They’re a great candidate for this or someone that’s telling you like, yeah, I haven’t worked. I’ve been a stay at home mom, I’m terrified for I don’t like what comes next, I don’t know. They’re a great candidate for this as well.

Holly: So I know you’re located in Frisco, but we have a statewide listenership. Are you able to help clients that aren’t local to you?

Ashley: Yes, I am. I actually meet most of my clients virtually. I only offer in person sessions one day a week, and that is because most of my clients prefer virtual. I’m actually the way that life coaching is, I’m not licensed by state, so I can see clients anywhere. And most of my clients actually don’t even live in Texas for whatever reason. They just find me in other ways. And then I have clients who actually will live five minutes from the office and they prefer the telehealth option. It is a secure telehealth portal.

So it’s similar to Zoom but it has the security of you know, knowing someone’s not going to session bomb and drop in or something like that. And I think that telehealth really helps people to feel more comfortable. I personally prefer it. My coach is in California and I’m in Dallas. So you know, that’s the only option but you’re able to be comfortable at home, comfortable in your office. I coach people in their cars a lot because I think they just want that privacy. And I think it’s helpful if you really are having you know, an emotional reaction, which a lot of times you do.

Like this coaching is basically a great place to be processing your emotions. So if you’re highly emotional, you don’t have to then go walk out into a lobby and then drive home. And interestingly enough, I do think that men really have an easier time opening up with the telehealth. I think it can provide everybody, but I see it more with men, maybe a higher level of comfort, to do something uncomfortable, or maybe out of the norm for them of actually talking about emotions.

Holly: So shifting gears a little bit, I know, beyond just being able to help our divorcing clients, but you also are able to help professionals such as attorneys. What can professionals, most, especially attorneys, get out of life coaching?

Ashley: Yes, I actually have several clients who are attorneys, and doctors. I mean, I think you guys are all really burned out right now coming out of this last couple of years. I have a good friend who’s an attorney, and during the pandemic, he got so burned out, he was actually sleeping with his cell phone on his chest, so that it would vibrate and he could like answer emails in the night. And so it was a wild. He, he ended up actually getting sick, no surprise. Like, I think a lot of times, what we professionals don’t realize is that, you know, we’re very type A motivated, driven people, which is our best quality and our worst quality.

So it can really lead to a lot of burnout, and dissatisfaction with our lives. You know, even for attorneys, if you love the practice of law, which I hear a lot from my attorney clients. They’re like, I love practicing law, I love doing this, but I’m so miserable. Like I’m so burned out, I don’t see my family, I don’t sleep, I don’t this, I don’t that. And it’s like, we need to look at what is going on here. I mean, a lot of times, we do have really unhealthy boundaries, we have these high bars of perfectionism that we can’t meet, things like that.

So for an attorney, if, if this is resonating with you, it’s like, let’s look at what is going on that is contributing to where you are right now. And then let’s get you to a more healthy space, because it is possible, it is possible to still love what you’re doing and not be killing yourself, trying to do it. And then there’s of course, the piece to where sometimes people, you know, they just want a career change. They’re like, I’m done with this, I can’t do this anymore.

But I don’t know what that means. I’m even scared to admit that. So we can dig into all of that. And just to kind of really emphasize this burnout piece. I’m seeing this a lot lately. And burnout is very real. I have a client who is a physician and she was actually hospitalized for burnout. I mean, it can really take you down. And we want to catch it before we get you into the hospital and where you’re sick and feeling like I’m just at rock bottom.

Holly: What are some symptoms or early signs of burnout that attorneys should be looking for?

Ashley: That is such a good question. I would say feeling like almost like what I call being in zombie mode, like you’re kind of just going through the motions. Like you kind of wake up tired, you’re just kind of like, in sort of a bit of survival mode, like trying to get everything done. And then you kind of come home from a stressful day you don’t really shut off, maybe your phone is always around you. Maybe your thoughts are always on work. And your life is kind of consisting of like, work, watch TV, barely get by with everything, you know, child responsibilities, life responsibilities, whatever. Get crummy sleep, repeat.

So if you’re feeling a lack of fulfillment, if you’re feeling high stress, high anxiety, if you’re feeling low energy, if you’re feeling like my sleep has changed, my eating has changed. I’m not working out. I’m not taking care of myself. I’m not prioritizing myself. I don’t have any hobbies. I don’t have anything that’s really bringing me joy, or that I’m living for other than my job. These are massive red flags that I highly suggest we look at.

Holly: Do you have any tips to help attorneys or anyone else struggling with burnout to immediately start feeling better?

Ashley: I would say burnout can be a hard thing to admit, especially for the type a driven, motivated professional. I think we look at it like weakness, like, well, I can just power through I can just keep going. And it’s like okay, no, stop. Like step one, let’s admit that things are not going well. Like let’s admit that maybe we’re feeling burnout. Maybe we don’t want to admit that we’re in full on burnout. But let’s start by admitting something is not right here. This is not healthy. This is not sustainable. This does not feel good.

So like first let’s admit it because a lot of times when you just shine a light on it, you instantly feel better. And then my approach to burnout or depression all of this kind of thing is, you get out of this 2% at a time. It’s not like you’re like, oh, I’m burned out, and then tomorrow, I’m gonna feel totally better. Now, this is a process, and it’s baby steps. So if you’re trying to do this on your own, just ask yourself, what can I do that will make me feel 2% less burned out. 2% more energized, 2% more balanced or healthy, whatever it is, and then do that.

And this doesn’t have to be some big thing like, oh, I’m gonna go on vacation for a week. This can be you know what, I would feel 2% better if I sat outside and drink my coffee in the morning. This, I would feel 2% better if I took my phone out of the bedroom and slept with it in the other room and had it on Do Not Disturb from 9pm to 9am. You know, whatever it is, it doesn’t have to be this big, elaborate time consuming, expensive thing. It can be a little tiny thing that help you get out of burnout.

Holly: So I know a lot of attorneys, myself included, do coaching for like with a business coach. So how does what you offer differ from a traditional business coach?

Ashley: Such a good question. And I think business coaching is amazing when it comes to specifically helping you with your business. I look at a business coach, more of like a business consultant. Like I back in the day was an executive assistant at a consulting firm and those consultants, you know, would go into businesses and tell you, you know, here’s how to be more effective. Here’s how to make more money, whatever.

So my approach is more, I’m looking at your whole life. Yes, your career is a part of your life. And yes, we can certainly talk about all that we can talk about how you can make more money and all of that. But whereas I feel like a business coach is almost giving you a strategy of how to improve your business, I’m trying to more create your whole life with you. I’m trying to like go into your world and see okay, what does Holly need? What are Holly’s goals? What is Holly’s definition of success?

And then I am molding to you to help you go forward in a way that’s authentic to you. And I’m not saying every business coach is like this, becuase frankly, I don’t know. But I do know some business coaches who do have a consulting background or they’re former high level executives. And they kind of go in with this, you know, roadmap of like, every single client I see is going to do steps a, b, c, and d, if that makes sense.

Holly: Yes. So we’re just about out of time. But one of the questions I like to ask everyone who comes on the podcast is this. If you could give one piece of advice to family lawyers, what would it be?

Ashley: I think it would just be the advice that I give to everyone that the more clear that you are on who you are and what you want in your life, the easier and more fulfilling your life will be. So take that time to get that clarity, and to really know yourself, and to know what you want. And then allow yourself to be who you really are, and to want what you really want. Even if it goes against family, societal expectations, everything. Just live life for you and it’ll be easier and much happier.

Holly: So we’re gonna have listeners go if they want to learn more about you?

Ashley: Yes, so you can visit my website, which is lifecoachashley.com. Or you can visit the Frisco Counseling and Wellness website and my bio is on there. I’m also very active on Instagram, and my Instagram is Ashleythelifecoach, very easy to remember. And I am happy to answer any questions anyone might have about coaching. My website has all the details about working with me. And my office manager at Frisco Counseling and Wellness is also really skilled with answering questions about coaching about working with me.

So I would love to be in touch. I’d love to hear from you. And I always love to hear kind of what resonates with people. If there’s anything eye opening that maybe I said or anything that maybe sparked some curiosity in you. Let’s talk. I mean, I’m very social. I’m all about connecting with people. So I’d love to hear from you.

Holly: Well, thank you so much for joining us today. For our listeners, if you enjoyed this podcast take a second to leave us a review and subscribe so you can enjoy future episodes.

Voiceover: The Texas Family Law Insiders podcast is sponsored by the Draper Law Firm. We help people navigate divorce and child custody cases and handle family law appellate matters. For more information, visit our website at draperfirm.com.